African art's international impact

Podcast transcript: scroll to the areas that interest you

• TF: Tristanne Farrell, Investec Wealth and Investment International, Senior Investment manager
• SA: Sanell Aggenbach, an artist based in Cape Town and her work deals primarily in history and processing of found imagery
• BS: Brett Seiler, a South African artist based in Cape Town the themes of his work include muses and familiar objects like houseplants and chairs

   

• 00:00: Intro

  SA: The UNESCO-Aschberg Residency Programme I did in India elevated my profile, and that sort of kicked off my career in 2001. You have to lift your game - you know what sells in South Africa, but that does not apply to the international market. 
  
  TF: Welcome to Art in Focus, an Investec Focus Radio series that explores the dynamic and growing African art market. I'm Tristan Farrell, your podcast host. I'm a senior wealth manager at Investec  Wealth and Investment International and have a passion for art that's quite out of control. In this podcast, I'll be chatting with collectors, investors, renowned artists, and emerging talents about the current state of the African art scene.

  Whether you're an art novice or a seasoned investor, join me as we tour the landscape of Africa's artistic expression together.

  To mark the final episode of the podcast series, we're recording this live from the 12th edition of the Investec Cape Town Art Fair, the largest art fair on the continent. In this episode, we'll be discussing African art's impact on overseas markets from the perspective of two African artists who have drawn much international attention.

  We set up in amongst the hustle and bustle of the fair, in amongst all the galleries exhibiting, the artworks on display, it's just terrific to be recording the final episode of this five part series from what is arguably the centre of the African contemporary art market right now.

• 01:09: Introduction of guests

  TF: I'm joined today by Brett Seiler and Sanell Aggenbach. Brett Siller is a South African artist based in Cape Town, graduated from Ruth Prowse in 2015, originally born in Zimbabwe, and the themes of his work include muses and familiar objects like houseplants and chairs. Brett is not fearful to engage directly with political, sexual, gender, and cultural themes. He also has recently had a solo show in Leipzig.

  Sanell is an artist based in Cape Town and her work deals primarily in history and processing of found imagery. She easily explores a variety of mediums, which seems to keep evolving every time I see her work. She has had a few shows in London, South Africa and Austria. So welcome to both of you.
  
  BS: Thank you so much for having us.

  SA: Thank you, so lovely to be here

• 02:13: Art careers often start with DIY initiatives

  TF: To start us off, let's discuss both of your backgrounds and how you both got involved in art as your chosen career. So Brett, you're a young gentleman, 31 years of age.

  BS: Yeah.

  TF: Tell us a little bit about the guerrilla shows, the pop up shows from the earlier days of your career.

  BS: When I graduated, I realized there wasn't going to be someone to just pick me up and I have a career, so I kind of just did it myself and when looking for spaces where I would host one day pop up exhibitions and got a community together and we hosted one day of shows, and that's kind of how those shows came about.

  And then from that, we started having events. Kind of more acclaim, and we started getting involved in group shows. I think it's normal, actually, how it starts.

  SA: I graduated in the mid 90s, and it was a completely different art world in Cape Town. We had the AVA Gallery and Joao Ferreira. That was it. So I had my first solo exhibition at the AVA, and then there wasn't really much to do after.

  So I travelled a bit, lived in London, and then I got this incredible scholarship from UNESCO, the Sanskriti Award, and New Delhi, and I stayed in India for about six months. And then from there, just slowly building up and showing in Cape Town, as soon as new galleries seemed to prop up, which was the Bell-Roberts Gallery, then it was Stevenson Gallery, and finally the Goodman Gallery.

  So it was a slow process of also just having a little one off show, waiting two years, Waitressing, paying off student loans.

  TF: Sounds like everyone waitresses at some point.

  BS: yea, and retail as well

  SA: And it's that, that whole scene of DIY, I think is very important from both of our backgrounds where you just make a plan.

  BS: You just make a plan, hustle.

• 03:56: Community fosters connections and relationships among artists

  TF: So Sanell now you're also arguably part of the art royalty family being married to Brett Murray and all, both being artists.

  SA: I should tell him that and we should definitely have that printed on the t-shirt.

  TF: I think it's the next painting maybe and you both have amazingly. How did you both meet each other?

  SA: Interesting story, in the mid 90s I was a painting and printing lecturer, and we had to do a module of sculpture and Brett was my sculpture lecturer.

  BS: Brett was your sculpturing lecturer?

  SA:  But before you get too excited

  BS: Scandalous!

  SA: Nothing exciting happened, I'm afraid. He was a young  upcoming artist, his career took off, so he was only at Stellenbosch that year for about six months. But it was an interesting time because we were taught by Lisa Bryce, Claudette Schreuders, Brett Murray, Anton Kannemeyer. Conrad, Bothes, so we had all these interesting young upcoming artists and I think that that's the first time that we can see that anyone can actually have a career as an art maker. And it was only in 2001 he had an exhibition at the Bell-Roberts Gallery and my show was right after his so he came to my  walkabout and then he started stalking me. It paid off, we've been married for 21 years.

  BS: That's super romantic.

• 05:08: Artists' careers often begin with gallery support

  TF: And the two of you, I know it's quite difficult for a lot of artists starting out to get into your first gallery. How did you get into your first galleries, and who was the gallery? And Brett, shall we start with you?

  BS: So, I guess  I was quite lucky, uh, Everard Read offered me a cubicle right after, actually, no. I had my first solo with AVA, and then I had a cubicle with, with Emma at Everard Reid. And then there was kind of like this weird guerrilla shows that I was doing, I was trying to, like, get in still.

  And then Ken & Smith happened. When they broke apart, I fell into the hands of Everard Read and through Smith, I was showing here at Investec Cape Town Art Fair. And I got, uh, Eigen + Art, which is a German gallery. And they saw me here, and they picked me up, and they offered me a group show. And ever since then, I've had two galleries, which is Everard Read and Eigen + Art.

  SA: I also started off at the AVA. That was the late 90s. And this is where the whole idea of having international support comes into play. Because if it wasn't for the UNESCO Aschberg Residency Program I did in India, that elevated my profile, I wouldn't be able to have a show at Bell-Roberts. And that sort of kicked off my career in 2001. And after Bell-Roberts, I'll work with Joao Ferreira, who is an incredible secondary art marketer. And I worked with Brundyn gallery and with WHATIFTHEWORLD/ Gallery. So, it's sort of very slowly snowballed from there.

  TF:  In the international scene now, you've both mentioned, Sanelle you’ve said you exhibited at Circa. Brett, you've recently shown at Gallery Eigen in Leipzig. I hope I'm saying that right, Leipzig.

  BS: Yeah.

   

• 06:46: International markets require patience and persistence

  TF:  But how difficult was it to break into the international market? And who are your overseas collectors or museums that collect your work?

  BS: I was very lucky that Eigen+Art found me, I guess that a lot of people are drawn to my work in Europe, and it just was a snowball effect, and it just became a bigger monster, you know. After that, they gave me a solo in Berlin, and then now they just recently gave me a solo in Leipzig, and they found my market, and my market is now in Asia, in America, in Europe. And as the locals will probably know my earlier works now, which is probably a kind of interesting dynamic. So I guess wherever you are in the world, you'll find a different phase of my career.

  SA: It wasn't something that I seeked out. I didn't, because I have incredible local support.

  BS: Yeah.

  SA: For instance, I have quite a few, South African women who've been supporting me throughout my career. A lot of collectors are women. So, in my case, in 2004, Roger van Wyk, curated a show called Turbulence for Red Bull. The Red Bull Hangar in Austria, Salzburg. That was 10 years after democracy. So, it was all about turbulence in South Africa being the rainbow nation, the things that we were going through, but looking on the bright side. And through that, my work was picked up by Austrian collectors.

  And I've now been working with Mario Mauroner who are in Salzburg and in Vienna and also in London. I've been working with Everard Read for the past couple of years. So, it's a very slow gradual process and it takes time to find the people you want to work with. For me, that is critically important. I have actually said no to a couple of projects where I just feel that the agents didn't align with what's important to me or if there's not a social component to the gallery where they really care about their artists or treat their collectors well. And I mean it's a small pond - we all know who to work with and who not and who to stay clear of.

• 08:42: Local art community fosters stronger connections

  TF:  Do you find the international market or the local market interpret your work differently or is it a similar message?

  BS: I think South Africa market is quite laid back, I think that the European market can be a little bit more uptight. But I mean, that's just my experience, you know. It's quite nice when you come to a fair and, we are a little bit more loose. But I guess the competition is more stiff in a way.

  SA: Absolutely.

  BS: Sometimes.

  SA: You take that for granted, but I mean, we have an incredible art community in South Africa. And that's where Investec has been incredible to bring us all together once a year. You can see all your friends and all your collectors are in one room.

  TF: Only once a year. I think I see you more than that.

  BS: Everybody sees each other. Yeah. It's like a family reunion.

  SA: For the art fair. For the Investec Cape Town Art Fair. It's wonderful to see. But my experience is that we are much more of a community in South Africa.

  BS: Yes.

  SA:  Where overseas, as you said, is a little bit more business driven.

  BS: It's more dog eat dog world, yeah.

  09:33: African art significantly influences global art concepts.

  TF: In what ways do you think African art challenges or revises Western art concepts?

  BS: Yeah, I felt like this is a thesis question.

  SA: This is a very high-grade question.

  TF: It's one of your art history questions.

  BS:  Yeah, yeah.

  TF: So like, throw out your best answer here.

  SA: I would actually throw it around. I would say that South Africa is making an incredible impact in the international market. So Koyo Kouoh is now going to be the curator for next year's Venice Biennale. I mean, it's fantastic. Fantastic, that from a small museum in the tip of South Africa that we can make such a global impact.

  BS: I would say I agree completely. I wouldn't know how to answer that.

  TF: Okay, should we move over from art history? It's feeling a...

  BS: Ja.

  TF: So also then, on the international artists, we had a small conversation that triggered this question.

  BS: Yeah.

  TF: International artists or movements that you feel have influenced African art or your personal practice specifically and maybe start with Sanell.

  SA: This might sound very abstract, but the whole grunge punk movement from the eighties and the nineties, because as South African artists, we don't have government support. It's very much DIY. So you have to create your own forums. You've got to create your own shows, your own audiences. So that whole entrepreneurial, wonderful, skilful way that we could put something together and make an impact. I would say grunge and punk.

  BS: Yeah. You can kind of see it with the Demo... Demo boys, the Demo Project boys, kind of like these young people kind of like just throwing the muck and making a little bit of a mess. I see a lot of textile influences and a lot of abstraction coming through as well.

   

   

• 11:08: Overseas shows significantly enhance artists' careers

  TF: What impact does having a show overseas have on artist’s future careers? Is it important?

  BS: I mean, yes, of course it's important. I mean, it opens up a greater market, one, and secondly, it also takes your level of the art world into a different atmosphere. You know, it's eye opening.

  SA: And it evolves you, the other aspect which is really important is, you have to lift your game. You know what sells in South Africa, but that does not apply to the international market.

  BS: That's a challenge to yourself as well.

• 11:39: Emerging artist awards significantly support artistic careers

  TF: So, you both know Investec as a brand, we've sponsored the fair but we've committed to a new award now at the fair. It's committed to creating platforms for local artistic talent to shine on the international stage and basically is in the form of the Investec Emerging Artist Award. How important are these prizes to artists at the early stages of their careers?

  BS: I think if there was any chance to have studio rent or materials given that you don't have to stress about for at least a few months, could make a whole artist's career turn..

  SA: Absolutely.

  BS: 100%.

  SA: I couldn't agree more.  I would say for a young artist that there are at least 10 reasons every month not to continue your practice. It's about you paying your rent, paying your bond, making work, and it's stressful. And we don't have as much coverage in the media as we used to have a couple of years ago. So, very few art reviews. So, these prizes are fundamental.

  BS: Yeah.

  SA: And basically in 2003 it… I won the Absa L'Atelier award that sent me to Paris for six months. And that was the push that I needed to actually take it seriously as a career, for sure.

  TF: Yeah. And I think also just back to the funding point, I mean, Brett, when you started out, you were making your own canvases, making the wooden frames. You painted in bitumen, which is roof paint.

  BS: Yeah.

  TF: Um, was this because of the cost or was it your chosen material?

  BS: Well, no, no, no, it was completely a mistake. I mean, I walked into a Builder's Warehouse and, um, I saw black paint and it wasn't black paint. It was just bitumen. And it kind of just stuck with me. And it was purely out of because I was poor at the time. And I couldn't really afford, like, black paint. But it became something more meaningful, and it's turned into its own monster in a way. And now I know how to work with the material and tenderize it and clear it and work with it and navigate it in its own way. And now it's become more of a metaphor. For sure!

  TF: And you're adding some greens into the work I see now, is that also bitumen?

  BS: It's also bitumen, yes. So bitumen comes in three colours. Red, green and black.

  SA: I did not know that. I always liked that molasses, that beautiful brown molasses tone. I love that.

• 14:19: Emerging artists make significant contributions to collections

  TF: Which artists do you both see as emerging talents now? And are you buying for your personal collections? And we can start with Sanell, maybe.

  SA: Absolutely. I bought my first artwork. It was at WHATOFTHEWORLD. And it was a Zander Blom drawing. And I actually had it couriered back to Joburg so that he can sign it. Just to make sure that his signature is on there. And that was his first solo exhibition that he did after Avant Car Guard. And that's where I started. I could now afford a small little painting. And those aren't works that I'll ever put on the secondary market because they mean so much to me.

  And also, someone like Jeanne Hoffman, who is a fantastic painter, also with Everard Read Gallery. Um, she used to do ceramic works, which she doesn't do anymore, and I managed to buy one of her ceramic works and I'm so glad I did because now she doesn't produce them as much as she used to.

  TF: Do you have a Brett Seiler in your collection?

  SA: Oh, I have none. I am working on a barter, I am working on a swapsie.

  BS: I was about to say like normally when it comes to like art buying, I normally do art swaps. And that's a really interesting way to barter when it comes to artists, like you have a different sort of currency.

  SA: On the one hand, on the other hand, I know that young artists really need the finances.

  BS: Well, yeah, definitely if it's a young artist I buy it.

  SA: So, if you’re establish, I shall barter. But, Nabeeha Mohamed is an incredible artist. I'll absolutely love her work. And, uh, Atang Tshikare.

  BS: Yeah.

  SA: I love his sculptures. If I could, I would buy one for sure.

  TF: A new brand?

  BS: Uh, I have a few, I have a Luca Evans, I have an Aaron Philander, I have a lot of young artists as well, a lot of them used to be also kind of my assistants back in the day. But if I see something that I like, I just buy it immediately. Kind of, if it's cheap, if it's from grad show, obviously support 100%.

• 16:03: Artists often create deeply personal, impactful works

  TF: Going to a very topical question, of all the work you've both produced to date, which is your favourite?

  BS: Well, I mean, they're all really beautiful, I hope, but I made a series called The Alphabutt, which is like, um... all the letters are the alphabet, and they have letters that are, like, associated with, like, queer histories. And it's like this massive installation, I mean, they're separated now, but It's kind of like a turning point in my career of how I see work and how I make paintings and everything. Yeah, I'm sure you...

  SA: Me, I started off with very unconventional sculptures. So, I would make a fake fur sheep and tapestries and hydroponically grown grass horse sculpture. So, I only started casting bronzes in 2012, and one of the first bronzes I cast was a small pony, a little black pony. And, um, a couple of years later, I took two of my children's toys. It was actually a gift from, um, Linda Goodman from Goodman Gallery that she gave to me when I was pregnant. She gave us three bunnies - a mom and dad and a baby, and I stitched the baby and the mom together in the shape of the (Madre) Pieta.

  BS: Yeah. Amazing.

  SA: And then used that as a reference for a very large bronze. So, the bronze was cast in 2019. It's called Madre Pieta. And it was a technical feat. It was difficult to produce.

  BS: Yeah.

  SA: But because it came from such a lovely marriage of the personal and the academic, that is by far my favourite work.

• 17:32: Shows that explores themes of loss and community

  TF: So, onto current shows now, which is amazing, and I'm super excited for both of you, because it's all happening right now. Um, Brett, you've got a show at Everard Read, which is titled, "I Would Like to Lose It All With You", which is tattooed on your forehead as I stare at you. Um, what's the story behind the body of work and the title of the show?

  BS: The title of the show is kind of like a double meaning, there's a lot of ideas of loss, of gamble, but also promise and hope, and it carries on themes about relationships, whereas before I was talking about maybe muses and affairs and love and romance, and before that home building. So, this is leaning more into platonic relationships. It's a very tender show and I'm very proud of it.

  TF: Who are the muses in the works? I saw Aksha's in there.

  BS: Yeah, there's like a lot of my friends, a lot of the queer community. I have a lot of trans work in the show, which I'm very proud of and very honoured to have had in my studio to paint. So, we have Aksha, we have Willem, we have Ryan, we have Michelle, we have all the people that are around me. So, it's also a very community driven project, I guess.

• 18:40: Blue tones evoke memory and emotion

  TF: And Sanell, her show is coming up as yours goes down. So it's quite significant. So your solo will be at Everard Read as well. It's coming up in March and it's titled "Past Lives". You only use blue and grey tones in all this work. Can you explain a bit about the colour palettes and the body of work itself?

  SA: So, for me, time isn't linear, it's circular. So, every couple of years, I come back to that same palette, like you use your bitumen. For me, it's always been cerulean, blue, and Payne's grey, and warm white. And, um, I don't know, I've been thinking about it a lot. What is it about those blue tones? For me, blue is the color of memory, a bit of melancholy, a bit of dreaminess, and a bit of spookiness.

  Because a lot of these images are double exposures. So I would look at different references over different bodies of work. So, I paint figurative works, botanical works and night sky works, and it's going to be wonderful to have all three themes in one exhibition, and the one thing that ties them together is the color so using the same tones for all the paintings knits together all those different themes into one coherent exhibition.

  BS: As a painter I've always kind of been jealous of the way that you paint because you do like a little bit of a swoosh.

  SA: I do.

  BS: And that swoosh is just so effortless, and I look at him like, oh my god, this girl's just got it down. Yeah, you have got it down.

  SA: It's very, very time... the only problem, I'm a, I'm a very late bloomer, in terms of, I do... it's very time consuming to create these works because I work with layers.

  BS: Yeah.

  SA: So it's a lot of glazing, a lot of layering, and it takes 24 hours to 48 hours for one layer to dry before I can apply the second layer.

  BS: Yeah.

  SA: So it's a building up of imagery over time. So usually one painting takes between one month and six months per painting. So it's a long, slow process of building up layers.

• 20:33: Supporting print studios nurtures young art collectors

  TF:  Coincidentally, both of you have produced a new print work for the Investec Cape Town Art Fair with Loft Editions. Um, can you share some thoughts on this process, producing the work? Sanell, you mentioned earlier that in your past life, you were a printmaking lecturer, which I didn't know.

  SA: Correct, I was a printmaking lecturer for four years. I've been working with Georgina for the past three years. Georgina Berens started this company called Loft Editions a year ago, and she is my absolute happy place, her studio, because you can just go in and you've got a clear idea of the scale of the work you want to prepare. She prepares the plates. It's the paper, and gives you enough opportunity to just play and experiment with,  

  BS: She's wonderful!

  SA: You don't have a huge deadline that you have to create a certain amount of works. And it's through that freedom and trust, I think, that you're able to create memorable works. So, we're very lucky that we're both showing with her this year at the Investec Art Fair.

  TF: What's the print of?

  SA: What I'm doing is, there are 15 prints. Yeah, so the, it's basically, it's called "Extra", and I had a look at massive hairstyles. So it's African hairstyles, punk hairstyles, beehives, anything that gives a little bit of height to the portraits.

  BS: I made a self portrait out of a woodcut, so you're gonna see like a lot of my tattoos on there. It's kind of just me leaning with my arms kind of open, looking down. It's very melancholy as well.

  SA: Supporting print studios is incredibly important because that's how you get young collectors to start buying arts and not a lot of people can start buying a painting. So you can buy a small etching or you can buy a monotype which is a one-off, but the price is comparatively much cheaper than a painting. So that's a wonderful way to get people to start collecting really young.

• 22:16: Sanell donates art proceeds to Mosaic

  TF: So we've got a final surprise for you, Sanell. So Sanell is turning 50 this year. You wouldn't believe it staring at her right now.

  SA: Despite my youthful appearance!.

  TF: 50 in the body of a 25-year-old.

  SA: Indeed.

  TF: And she's got this new solo show coming up, which we spoke about. She's got a new book coming out, which covers her entire career, basically all the works just to mark this milestone. You said you'd like to donate some of the proceeds from the sale of your show to Mosaic, which is an NGO based in Cape Town. Can you tell us a little bit about mosaic and why it's close to you?

  SA:  Mosaic is an incredible NGO. They've been going for 30 years. They offer legal support to victims of violence and shelters. So, they are very instrumental in going to court processes, of getting restraining orders. And in fact, this is very important to note why they are so magnificent. In 2023, they assisted 9,400 people with processes in the court. And they managed to get more than 7,000 protection orders against spousal abuse. So, it's a way of giving a safe space to a woman or a family or a man who is in an abusive relationship. And while they have that safe space, give them time to process about why they should leave the partner or to get the partner into therapy.

  So, it's a nonjudgmental, wonderful organization. 10% of all my sales from the art fair sales and from my solo is going to go to Mosaic. And if you want more info, you can just look them up. mosaic.org.za.

  TF: So, I'm not sure if you're both aware, but Investec has a philanthropy team that ensures we facilitate a sustainable legacy on behalf of all our clients. Investec previously has funded Mosaic on behalf of one of our Private Client Foundations, and we've asked our philanthropy team to please donate on your behalf to wish you a very happy birthday.

  BS: Amazing!

  SA: I'm so, so delighted!

  TF: So that's your start.

  SA: Thank you so much.

  BS: Yay!

  SA: And it's ongoing! Thank you so much. I think they're going to be absolutely delighted.

• 24:15: Closing and where to subscribe to listen to the series

  TF: So, thanks to both of you for your time today and sharing your thoughts. It's time for Sanell and Brett and I to go and wander around and appreciate the riches of the Investec Cape Town Art Fair. Thank you for listening to the special edition Investec Focus Radio Series, Art in Focus. It's been an absolute pleasure being your host, and thank you for coming on this journey with me.

  You can find all these episodes of the series at investec.com/artinfocus wherever you get your podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it, leave a comment and forward it to your friends and colleagues.

  The views expressed are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily represent the views of the firm and should not be taken as advice or recommendations. Investec Bank Limited, an authorized financial services provider and registered credit provider.

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