Art in nurturing identity and heritage

Podcast transcript: scroll to the areas that interest you

• TF: Tristanne Farrell, Art in Focus Host
• MS: Mary Sibande, artist
• SD: Sahlah Davids, artist
• LA: Leila Abrahams, artist

00:00: Intro

TF: Welcome to series two of Art in Focus, an Investec Focus Radio vodcast launched to coincide with the Investec Cape Town Art Fair, the largest contemporary art fair on the African continent. I'm your host, Tristanne Farrell. I'm a senior wealth manager at Investec Wealth and Investment International, and a passionate art collector.

Over the past few weeks, I've been welcoming an extraordinary line-up of guests into my home. Curators, collectors and artists who are shaping the way we value and experience African art. In this episode, we'll be discussing art as a medium for storytelling, expression of identity, and cultural memory.

In Africa, artists not only reflect their communities, but also help shape them. So how do galleries and institutions support artists in developing their craft, growing their careers locally and internationally, and evolving their themes and mediums? 

00:49 Meet the guests: Mary, Leila and Sahlah

TF: Let's meet my guest today. I'm joined today by Mary Sibande, one of South Africa's most acclaimed contemporary artists. Through her iconic alter ego, Sophie, her work explores the construction of identity, memory, and legacy of generational narratives. Leila Abrahams is a multidisciplinary artist whose sculptural works use some unusual materials like gel capsules, blister packs to explore healing and vulnerability. Her works are collected both locally and internationally. And Sahlah Davids is a rising force in contemporary South African art, known for her meticulous use of fabric, beads, and pins. Her practice reframes domestic craft as a vessel for personal and cultural memory. I'm a huge admirer of all your works. Welcome to my home, all of you.

ALL: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

01:51 Making meaning from heritage and identity

TF: So let's start with the first question, and it's positioned to all of you and I might start with Mary. To begin I'd like to hear about your personal stories behind your work. What aspects of identity, memory, or lived experience form the backbone of your practice today?

MS: A few years ago I created an avatar and I named her Sophie. Through Sophie… I used Sophie as a vehicle to tell personal and historical stories. Throughout the years, I've been collecting stories from women in my family who are all domestic workers, and I've turned these stories into an art form, an art practice.

Throughout the years, Sophie has taken different phases where I explore memory resistance and aspiration. And this fictional figure has been a conduit in going back and forth into history, into the present and also into the future.

And this is what, ja, and this character has taken me all around the world. It's so extraordinary that a girl from Barberton, a small town in Mpumalanga is doing what I'm doing. So, it's been a great and challenging… and I'm grateful for this journey. Ja.

TF: Do you see Sophie as the backbone of your practice at the moment?

MS: Definitely, she is this character that stands in the centre of the room and she relates to all of our histories. She is a character that is born out of South African stories and doesn't matter what colour skin you are, we all relate to this domestic worker. If she's not your mother, she's the lady that looks after your house. She is a neighbour, she is an aunt, so she's every woman.

TF: She's so captivating. I remember seeing her at the Zika National Gallery for the first time and I was like, wow, what is this work? Who is this artist?

MS: Ja.

TF: So on to you, Sahlah.

SD: So I think my work really began dealing with kind of questioning aspects of identity and where I come from. My dad would always say, you'll know where you're going if you know where you come from. So I was like, dad, well where do we come from? You know, there's kind of a lot of questions in terms of, especially Cape Muslim, Cape Malay heritage on where those origins began. And kind of the first stab into kind of understanding the conceptual narrative behind the work was… my grandmother is a seamstress. She made wedding dresses, from my mom's side. My dad's father was a tailor, from my father's side. All… a lot of my uncles are tailors. A lot of my aunts are seamstresses at the moment. So there was this almost continuous narrative throughout my family heritage and history of these artisans and professions that are creative in nature, but were professions that were about ensuring a comfortable future in an apartheid regime where it didn't allow that to be. So it was the exploration of fabrics, textures, beads and pins, unpicking this history, although uncomfortable, although kind of triumphant in many ways, that they all kind of come together to make the origins of who we are and how we exist, whether good or bad, but they exist.

And how do we then, for the new generation of individuals in… particularly in Cape Town. So Cape Malay and Cape Muslim is very much based in Cape Town. How do we then grow and how do we then understand the past to inform our future? So a lot of my fabrics and beads and pins are materials that have meaning, but they come together to unlock quite an emotive experience when seeing the work

TF: Brilliant, Leila?

LA: So to understand my practice, you have to know that at the age of 12 I was diagnosed with lupus and autoimmune disease, and after my first hospitalisation I had… I was taking 20 pills a day. And that, years later at university, led to the suggestion of using empty gel capsules and blister back to represent that journey.

TF: I remember seeing your work at the Michaelis Grad show and going, how's this explained? And then someone told me that story. And it's so much more relatable when you understand the history behind it.

LA: Yes.

06:08 The creative process, materials and making

TF: Sahlah, your process is really meticulous. Could you walk us through what it takes both technically and emotionally to build a work from hundreds of beads, pins, and textile fragments?

SD: Meticulous is actually a really interesting word. A lot of people say that to me, but often it feels quite emotive. There's this kind of innate practice of… it's quite a ritual, you know, watching my grandmother and my grandfather kind of… the way they would nip and tuck and how they would do things, even though I had no understanding of what they were doing, it was innate, kind of, this practice. And similarly, the way I kind of bead things together, it's that kind of motion.

But a lot of the materials I use in the works are collected from family members and people who are still practicing as seamstresses today. And I think what's important with the work is that it creates a vernacular, right?

That this practice of being artisans, it stems from generations and generations of making, and that that creates its own kind of aesthetic. So collecting materials from that, it puts that into perspective. Everything is made from upholstery foam, then upholstered… very much related to the domestic arena… in where the work kind of speaks to.

TF: I'm sensing a collab work here, I’m just saying. So Leila, just back to you. Have you ever felt inspired to expand your material vocabulary? Are there any new substances, objects, or textures you're curious to explore in you work?

LA: Yes. So I have tried with crochet, but I felt it wasn't really… I feel my work is very much specific to my story and I couldn't manage to get the story to the material, that connection. But I am hopefully working towards using more hospital stuff, sort of like drip lines and blood tubes. And needles.

TF: How do you get hold of all this stuff?

LA: I found websites online.

08:08 Colour, symbolism and meaning

TF: So Mary, in your work, I'm fascinated by colour and the colour is never incidental, especially the purple and red. What's the significance of those two colours for you?

MS: Hmm. Well, before the purple and the red, there was a blue, so the blue… I was exploring memory in a way that I collected stories from my grandmother, collected stories from my great-grandmother – I think she died when I was 14 – so I still have memory and I had a relationship with her and I also collect stories from my mother.

And then these stories gave birth to the blue colour. So the blue colour is about the blue collar that these women… who were all domestic workers, and they had aspirations, they had dreams, but because of our history in South Africa, they were limited. And there was a double limitation: first they are and were black. And secondly, they were women.

And then the purple body of work, I was looking at myself, where do I see myself among, surrounded by these women? And I thought of a colour that speaks of resistance.

A colour that brought us here where we are right now, where we are all sitting in one room. And for me that colour is the purple colour. It speaks of how privileged we all are to actually converse in this manner without getting arrested. And of course it speaks about not taking anything for granted. And also just diving deep into our history as South Africans.

And then the red body of work, it speaks about emotions… on how crucial emotions are in human existence. So for example, I was looking at the emotion of anger. So I was seven months pregnant, lying in bed, and I was watching the news… and then you know, when you watch something, you watch the news, of course, when you look at South Africa, there's always violence. There's always… the violence is always imminent if it's not lurking around the corner.

And then on that day people were protesting against service delivery and then the mobs started burning down buildings, important buildings that I think it was a school and a police station. I was like, why are South Africans so angry? Where is this rage coming from? And as a visual artist, I wanted to go deeper. I wanted to understand this rage. Where is it coming from as a people. And in isiZulu, or SiSwati, in the Nguni languages, when you describe someone as angry, you go, “Oh, she was so angry, she became a red dog.” So this red dog became a metaphor for anger. And I started creating these dogs.

So what I did was, I did some sketches and I sent them to the foundry. I was like, Michael, can you please make these life-sized dogs that look very angry? And, the idea is I want to see the snarling. I want to see them tense. I want to see their muscles, you know, being contracted. When you see these red dogs that I created, everything is exaggerated. The teeth are longer than what they should be. And then the claws are also very long. So the idea was, I wanted to exhibit and show this rage and how do you do that as a visual artist? So, ja.

TF: You mentioned the dogs that get cast at a foundry, and we've actually got an episode before this that we recorded where we spoke about whose art is it anyway? How much of the hand of the artist needs to be involved in the casting and the actual processing of the work before it's actually a claim to be your work? Or do you credit the people that help you and assist you with the process of the work?

MS: So there's always this understanding that a foundry is an extension of your studio. They are a tool. It's not a collaboration unless it is. But usually with foundries, they know they are… they have to make this object. And you send pictures and your mood board so they can get a feel, an idea of what you are looking for.

And so they can make it exactly how you see it in your head. So it's, ja, basically that they are an extension, they create a bridge from your head to their hands. For example, when I work on my photographic prints, so I will design the dress and the whole outfit and the props and whatnot, and then I'll show it to my seamstress, and I go, this is the mood board, let's look at Alexandra McQueen.

Let's look at Mantsho. Let's look at all these other fashion designers. And we from there, we borrowed things here and there to create a new design and, or a new dress. And then from there… now we have to create the photograph. And of course I'm not a photographer, so I don't follow all the principles of photography. So I will call… if I want the fabric and the design to stand out, I will call Jurie Potgieter, who is a fashion photographer, and then he'll actually make this idea into a photograph.

TF: So it's still your vision, he's just putting his hands to it.

MS: Exactly.

13:55 Growth, influence and change

TF: So, a question for all of you again. I'd like to understand how each of you have evolved as artists. What drives those shifts for you? Is it a personal change, political context, materials or time itself?

LA: So that for me was definitely… I know I was creating works at a point and then I was actually struggling to come up with new concepts and then I was actually hospitalised again. And, then I couldn't handle the work because it was too personal. And too hurtful to work with it again, but then it brought up a new surge of ideas and sparks.

TF: Mary, how do you evolve as an artist?

MS: I think constantly asking, constantly looking, having conversations, talking to other creatives in other careers, whether it be film, architecture, it would be visual art.

And I think for me, these conversations are always important to put into your creative space. For example, when I was looking at rage and why South Africans are so angry, I was reading, Call Me Woman, but I forgot the author. It speaks about this woman who is in Soweto and how she is going around with the struggles of the day, this is during apartheid.

And for me it's like I’m collecting all these stories and these national stories and also personal stories and making an… something new. But of course, it's the 21st century, you… it's impossible to make something new, something that you have not done before.

SD: I think, for me, the shift in the work is uncovering new stories, stories that maybe my grandmother hasn't shared at the time, or I think as I grew up my grandmother maybe opened up a little bit more, and I think that definitely influences the way in which I make, and the way in which I understand the work.

I think a big part of my practice is understanding that objects have meaning and that those objects can particularly grow. But not only just the combination of objects, but the way in which they're done.

So the repetitive motion, the way in which they shine and shift. And that the emotion that comes from not only making the work, but seeing the work is important to me, and how they are... I think, the viewer is able to see their own story within the work.

I think that's important so that a lot of my work comes from my own narrative, my own personal history, but that we all have very similar histories or we all have… I mean, when you speak, I'm like, yes, it's rage… You know?

And for me what was interesting is that in this process of making work, dealing with history and heritage, I started looking at the idea of expression, how, you know, the apartheid regime caused people to not practice religion or not gather.

Or… so there were other ways in which people needed to congregate or needed to express themselves. And that was through this beaded fabric and these overlays and just over the top materials that came from somewhere, but also nowhere.

It had elements of Indonesian culture. It had elements of, you know, the royal family. Everything that kind of related to making up an identity, but an identity that is not enforced. And, you know, where we essentially come from.

TF: When we once spoke, you spoke about your family actually being tailors and seamstresses, but not by chosen career.

SD: Ja, it was a necessity. So I think my grandmother would always say like, I would be like, please, can you teach me how to sew? And she would say, why? You have a degree, you know, you don't need to. And I think that kind of perception, through my art practice I would hope to change, that there is this deep meaning in the form of creating, no matter how big or small, no matter what craft it is, but it is embedded in a history. It is influencing the way people see the world. And how does that influence younger generations to do so?

TF: Art can preserve cultural identity, but it can also give back to the communities that shaped us. Do you feel a responsibility towards that place of people who informed your earlier life?

SD: Ja, of course. I think, first the idea of like preservation and conservation, I think the making is more aspects of questioning and evolving. I think, identity shifts and change through time, the way in which one community or another does so, so I think the most important thing for my work to do, is to allow for that questioning to happen and to then reinvent itself or coexist in a different manner.

But in terms of reaching back into the community, a big part of my work is making sure that those materials are collected from various individuals, but at the same time recognising through the titles of my work, through the stories that they share, that they are always, always within the work that I make. So I'm not making alone, it's a Sahlah Davids and Amatie, and Aunty Shariefa, and Ouma.

But at the same time, I think of myself as an artist and urban designer, it plays really well together in terms of… the one process of the art making is the questioning, the creating and the forming of identity and the forming of those questions and having that conceptual narrative grow.

Where the urban design looks at the really on ground, how do we then shape space in order to give back to communities who were previously disadvantaged? So the idea of social housing, the idea of public open space, creating safer spaces. Because they… as much as we can speak about identity, there are real problems that are in… especially in Cape Town today, and how we reimagine them creatively – there's always space for artists to do so.

19:43 Support, belief and opportunity

TF: Okay. And then just a question again to all of you, and give it some thought, how have galleries through exhibitions, residencies, or mentorships supported your careers and expanded the reach of the narratives.

SD: I think working with galleries for me has been a very interesting experience. I think when you come from work that's embedded in kind of the story and the narrative behind the work, not only the… so they come as a package a lot of the time, that working with galleries should see that narrative as part and parcel of the work that you create and that people who are either purchasing the work or engaging with the work, understand it and see what is behind it. I think that's quite an important…

TF: Mary?

MS: I always say that there's… talent is not enough. You need someone or a machine, that will back you up. You need someone to believe in what you do. I've realised throughout my career and also looking back at generations before me, there’s just so many artists that were talented, and are talented, but they were… they never made it out. Some of them died in cold in their studios. And, I always believe that you need someone to look at your work and go, this person needs to go to this level. And, mentorship is always important. And, I'm saying that because my partner and I, Lawrence Lemaoana, we've started a mentorship programme where we support young artists. Because we've been there before, where you look for someone to look,  you're seeking for someone to look at the object that you've created, but sometimes that someone doesn't come. And I think, also where we are right now, it's always important to, when you walk into a room, make sure that the door is open or bridge the door so that everyone can come in.

TF: Agreed. Leila onto you.

LA: Um, I've been very blessed. I've had quite a few mentorships. I really enjoyed the part where they actually pushed me further in my practice. So, I would be so excited, I'd give them a piece, they'd be like, no. Okay. I'll take it back. I'll work on it more.

TF: You're open to the feedback?

LA: Yes.

TF: Okay, great. 

21:54 Responsibility, reach and return

TF: Mary, just back to you again. So your work has travelled widely. How do you feel international audiences read your work differently to local ones?

MS: As humans, we have a shared…we have shared histories. If people are not talking about how we live right now in the 21st century, people are talking about colonialism, people are talking about slavery, people are talking about all these institutions that existed, up to where we are now.

So there's always a relationship – whether my work is exhibited in Europe or it's exhibited in America, especially in America, I feel like there's this, there's this umbilical cord that's connecting these continents, America and, or the Americas and Africa.  

For example, I exhibited my work at the Smithsonian, a lot of black women came to me and go, I get it. I see it. I see you. Thank you. And I was like. That's so interesting. How is that? And then when you look at the history of America and you look at the history of South Africa, it… there's a bridge. It relates.

The Jim Crow laws in the South, when they got to South Africa, they became this genius package. And, so ja, there's always this relationship, like where we actually… there's a human experience that we share. And for… to my surprise, it doesn't matter what colour you are, as long as you know your history, you definitely read and understand the work

TF: Or how it’s interpreted, it’s still relatable in some way.

MS: Exactly.

TF: So, Leila, back to you. How do you balance growth and authenticity? So there's a tension between creating what sells and creating what feels true to you. And you did touch on it a little bit earlier.

LA: Yes. I do feel, I feel I have a bit of a, not a cheat, but because of the pills and the… mostly the pills, that when people see the pills, then they normally know, if they know me, then they know that's my work. So I have that authenticity there. And then I don't really believe in making, in order to sell. Ja. I’m more into telling these stories, these personal stories that I hope help influence and help other people that have had similar stories.

TF: Mary, how do you see your personal stories filtering into the broader cultural memory of South Africa or the communities you identify with? And you have touched on it, so it is a huge topic within your work.

MS: What's exciting about us South Africans, we have so much to give. We have so many stories. So I've been listening to you ladies talking about your art practice, and I'm like, yes, I relate to that.

Yes, I relate to that. And though we are actually speaking from, well, typical South African story, we were in different geographies. But there is a shared narrative that we… there's a link and you speak about healing in your work.

And I'm like, we need that as South Africans actually right now, it feels like we are in a process of engaging into healing because we need that as a nation for us to actually move on and, you know, look at other themes or look at social problems that are existing right now. And looking at heritage and inheritance, and we need that to actually understand who we are so we can move forward.

Aspirations, we need that as human beings to actually aspire to be like the other countries that are doing well around the world.

So these themes for me, actually are interesting and they are actually… they play a very important role on top of our foundation. And ja. And then if we were to actually continue, as a nation in this kind of way, and I think we can see ourselves, we can get far, I think. But of course this is me being all aspirational. Let's see.

TF: So Mary's mentioned what her and Lawrence have been up to in the mentorship programme, but mentorship is critical in the art world. Who has shaped you most? The two of you? And how are you paying it forward to the next generation?

LA: I'd say today my door is always open to young artists, and, a lot of writers actually, or, students, they have messaged me and asked me for… to help them with a paper of theirs, a research paper because they wanted to bring in my art in some way.

TF: And I think unconsciously you also give back, because I saw you donate a lot of work to charity auctions, things like that. And a lot of artists do that, which is incredible.

LA: Yes.

TF: And you Sahlah?

SD: Ja, I think as an emerging artist in this context, it's tough. I mean, you know, it exists as a tough space, I'm just going to be honest. But I think the opportunity to work with multiple galleries and, you know, providing me with the support as a young artist to be like, no, your work is worthy, and cool, you know, continue making, is an honour, a complete honour.

TF: What drives you each day to keep your practices alive?

SD: I think what really drove me, which is going to sound very mushy right now, but the fact… it was when my grandmother said, I'm not going to teach you how to sew because you have a degree and that's, it's… you don't need to learn a practice that was born out of necessity. So what kind of drives me to continue to make is to change that narrative, that, you know, there are so many individuals, there are so many incredible skills, and especially in a South African context that, you know, there's power in it and being conscious of where you come from and how you exist, but also that vernacular is so cool, like the South Africa… in South Africa, every community, every kind of identity has their own way of making, their own way of representing, and it's incredible. And I think, you know, that's what drives me.

TF: Mary, what drives you?

MS: What drives me is I have a platform, I was given a platform. I always believe that if you're given a platform, take the microphone and speak.

TF: It's true. And Leila.

LA: I would say it's always these stories that I want to tell. And then I think I also, I wanted to be the artist that I wanted when I was in high school because I always struggled to find artist inspiration because I couldn't find an artist that I related to with my illness and all the family trauma and things like that. So I think, I think that's one of my main things, just to help others.

TF: So before I ask you the final question, I'd just like to point out that I have a Sahlah in my home, I have a Leila in my home, but I do not have a Mary. So we need to talk, hey.

MS: She's coming.

28:54 Aspirational acquisitions

TF: So the last question for you guys is basically, if you had an unlimited budget and you could buy any artwork in the world for your home, who would you buy?

MS: Ooh, I would buy a Tracey Rose. I would buy a Kara Walker. I would buy a Simone Leigh sculpture. I would buy a William Kentridge, because why not, he's a rockstar.

TF: You've given a lot of thought to this. And what work would you have in your home?

SD: So, as well, many works. I'll buy this one first. But definitely Thania Petersen, I’ve always admired her work. Haroon Gunn-Salie definitely. And then Dilara Findikoglu is a fashion designer. Definitely want to own a piece.

TF: Okay. Leila, you?

LA: Um, I'll take a Sahlah.

TF: Hint, hint.

LA: I see you also have a Francis Goodman. And then I think also Geena Wilkinson, the sweets. It just takes me back to my childhood.

TF: She’s actually a phenomenal painter as well. Which surprised me, ja. Okay. That's your list. You kept it local, no Salvador Dali’s for you…

30:05 Conclusion

TF: Thank you all to all our listeners for tuning into the special edition of Investec Focus Radio vodcast series, Art in Focus. I look forward to seeing you all at the Investec Cape Town Art Fair from Friday the 20th to Sunday the 22nd of February.

You can also find all the episodes of this series at investec.com/artinfocus or wherever you get your podcasts. If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate it, leave a comment, and forward it to your friends and colleagues.

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