Framing African art for the world

Podcast transcript: scroll to the areas that interest you

TF: Tristanne Farrell, Art in Focus Host
AR: Alexander Richards, Director – Stevenson
JT: Jana Terblanche, Director – Southern Guild
HA: Hamzeh Alfarahneh, Principal- Art(Advisory)

00:00 Introduction

TF: Welcome to series two of Art in Focus, an Investec Focus Radio vodcast launched to coincide with the Investec Cape Town Art Fair, the largest contemporary art fair on the African continent. I'm your host, Tristanne Farrell. I'm a senior investment manager at Investec Wealth and Investment International, and a passionate art collector.

Over the past few weeks, I've had the opportunity to welcome an extraordinary lineup of guests into my home. Curators, collectors and artists who are shaping the way we see and experience African art. And as we close the second series of Art in Focus, we're ending on a theme that's perhaps more abstract, but absolutely essential, the power of the narrative.

Every exhibition, every sale, every review shapes how we understand and value the work itself. In this final episode, we explore who tells the stories of African art, how these stories travel and what impact they have on perception and value. I'm joined by three remarkable voices who bring insight from across the art world.

Let's meet my guests: Alexander Richards, the director at Stevenson an international gallery of spaces in Cape Town, Johannesburg and Amsterdam; Jana Terblanche, a director of Southern Guild, a gallery based in Cape Town and LA and soon to be New York; and Hamzeh Alfarahneh, principal at Art Advisory, a consultancy that assists individuals and institutions build collections of cultural distinction, and curator of the new exhibition, By the Movement of All Things. Welcome guys. 

01:28: Growing up in art: Legacy, exposure and finding your path

TF: So, to start, let's dive into each of your personal journeys that have led you into this space. Alex, let's start with you, you come from a family of successful artists, and I recall learning about your mom amongst others, Jane Alexander, Irma Stern, she's one of the greats – it must have been amazing growing up in home like that. Did you steer towards an art career? Did your family guide you there? And as a new dad, would you motivate your child going into a career in art?

AR: I also studied my mom, actually in matric, so that's a few of us, I think. I wasn't, I wouldn't say that I was steered into any position in the art world but obviously having grown up in that world and seeing all my mom’s and dad’s friends who are artists and going… being dragged, to be honest, to every single museum exhibition, it really felt like something that I intrinsically knew stuff about or… and I think the question about a new dad is really interesting.

I mean, what's the parent supposed to say? They're supposed to say that the child must do what they want, which is true. So, I would hope my child does what she wants. But at the same time, I think already I can see her looking at artworks on the wall in a certain way.

But I would probably say that I would like them to do a job that is slightly more paid, well paid. I think, but in reality, if it's something that she's interested in, then of course. Ja.

TF: I remember seeing one of your mom's works, Charmed Lives, where she took pieces from her home, including some of your childhood memories and toys into the work, and I always wondered how it resonated with you emotionally and also being her gallerist, like, how does that feel for you?

AR: Yeah, I… Charmed Lives was always interesting. My friend, when I was growing up in primary school, came to the exhibition and found our homework diary or my homework diary and laughed for a long time and kind of made fun of me.

And I think that's kind of what I've had to deal with the whole time, where my mom uses her own personal experience – like I think most great artists do – and I'm obviously part of her personal experience. So they were…

TF: What's in the diary?

AR: The diary? Probably nothing. There's probably absolutely no notes. I was part of her work throughout, and it's interesting, I mean, now honestly, when I was in high school, I steered clear of it a bit going to an all-boys school. I don’t know if your mom using you in an artwork is not ideal. But now I kind of have a sense of pride and I really love how I am part of her story. And vice versa.

TF: She's amazing. I mean, I would be very proud.

AR: Thank you. Ja.

TF: And Jana, let's move to you. So your big news with Southern Guild is you guys are opening a gallery in New York soon.

JT: Yes. How exciting. I'm very happy to share that Southern Guild is opening very soon in New York, in the Tribeca area. And ja, this is a wonderful development for the gallery. It opened a new location in Los Angeles in early 2024 and it's just been incredibly wonderful because we have this natural American market.

That's kind of how the gallery has been positioned and what's, like, important to us. We focus a lot on the American market. Just over time doing art fairs in New York, including Frieze New York, Armory, we also did a collaborative exhibition in Tribeca, actually with another gallery there. It felt to us that this is where we need to be.

I mean, ultimately the gallery serves the artists and the collectors, and it has to, ja, make opportunities for both of those sort of groups. And for the artists, we felt that their work was being incredibly received in New York, the collectors were there supporting us, so it really just felt like a no-brainer. But ja, we're very excited.

TF: We are looking forward to seeing what comes out of that.

JT: Yes.

TF: And then I wanted to just go back a few steps, so when you and I first met you were a practicing artist and you had the pseudonym, Jana Babez, and then Jana Terblanche is the gallerist. So, I'm assuming ones the artist ones the gallerist, how does it all fit into the bigger picture now?

JT: Ja, my friends call me Babez, firstly, that is just my nickname. It came from living in London and I was saying, babes a lot. And when I came back to Cape Town, I tried to make my name on Facebook, Jana Babes with an S and they wouldn't have it. So, Jana Babez with a Z was born.

TF: When I wrote this, I did put Babez, I had to actually go check you had another surname.

JT: It's Babez, it's Babez. Some people think it's Spanish, Ba-bez…and I let them, I let them go with that. Honestly, there isn't this massive distinction. I am everything all at once. Jana Babez, ja, came… it was a definitely a sort of persona thing. My art practice was centred around performances of femininity, performances of humanness, how everything we're doing is a performance.

Everything you're wearing here today, you decided to wear and it's a performance. Whether it's a jeans and a T-shirt, it's a choice, you know, we perform our identity. I wanted to push that to the limits. So I, ja, created this character that was actually quite me, very pink, very Barbie-esque, very… she definitely listens to Dolly Parton, but those were also my personal interests and it fed into my art practice, and it feeds into my curatorial practice and also my approach as a gallerist.

I'm interested in performative practices. I'm interested in modern intimacies. I'm interested in how we engage with each other. So there isn't this big divide. Do I sometimes have… wear something else and wear something a little bit more extravagant? Sure. But that's also fun.

TF: Alex confessed earlier, he actually owns one of your artworks. So…

AR: Confessed, ja.

JT: Confessed…

06:54: From artist to advisor: Roles in the ecosystem

TF: Hamzeh, before you moved into art and founded Art(Advisory), you studied electrical engineering in Jordan. You then branched out into business brand identity and strategy. As an independent art advisor, how do you fit into the art ecosystem compared to gallerists? Do you have more freedom?

HA: As Jana said like I see it, like, as kind of like part of the journey. I think I picked up a lot of, you know, where I am today is really kind of like a combination of all the various journeys that I had to go through. And I picked up a few things from, you know, every discipline and ja, I ended up in the arts a bit by complete coincidence, like I did study fine arts, but I always saw myself more in the design space.

Then I had like a chance encounter and that spiraled into being involved and being the creative director at A4. And ja, the rest then became history and I really found a lot of solidarity and like, just really amazing connections in the South African art world.

TF: It’s definitely a passion point because I think I like, I get that from all of you as my friends and people I know from the art world. It's a huge passion in your body. You’ve got to love it.

JT: You’ve got to love it.

HA: And there's a sense of urgency. I don't know, maybe like for me, I just feel that there is like, yes, it is still a commercial industry, and you know, we do have those kind of bottom lines that we need to meet, but also we have to like balance that with culture.

And how do you put a price on culture? You know, I've been very lucky, especially with By the Movement of All Things, which is showing at Lawrie Shabibi in Dubai. I think the gallery understood what I wanted to achieve in the show, and they really gave me the space and the platform to do so.

For instance, I've only worked with two of the represented artists and then the remaining artists from the group show of seven artists who were not part of the gallery's roster.

And they really kind of understood the project in a sense. Also at the end of the day, it's a negotiation between myself and the artist trying to also sell them what I'm trying to do.

And I really wanted to have South African artists and Middle Eastern artists in the same sentence, to talk about them in the same way and to also really use the… those practices as a way to also speak about global abstraction and how we could expand the idea of abstraction from like the current dominant canon, which is very Eurocentric and you know, Western in a sense, and really bring in those practitioners into that canon and really expand on it. 

10:04: Curating and collaboration: Serving the artist and shaping the narrative

TF: So I think you raised a valid point. You all have some connect… so it's grounded in Africa, but you've got Amsterdam, you've got the States, and you've got the Middle East, and you're all experts internationally or locally in your fields.

So just coming back to you, Alex, just to ask around curating a show at Stevenson, what would you put into that to bring an artist's work to life and what is involved in curating a show for an artist?

AR: I always find different shows need different types of curation. I often think solo exhibitions need a bit more of a gentler guide than I think sometimes… group shows are a bit more my voice, let's say.

Maybe that's, ja, I think that's probably fair. I suppose if I… if we're looking at narrative, like what is the narrative that the artist is wishing to portray or at least speak to in the show?

I find curating really interesting when a lot of it is left to the viewer to work out. I don't… I think wall texts are amazing, but if they're too instructive or too, kind of, forced, I think it can take away from the experience of seeing the art and seeing the general space the way the artist would want.

TF: And if you're doing a solo show, does the artist have a… he or she have a say in how you present the work? Or do you… Do they hand over to you and say, you do…

AR: Absolutely. I wouldn't want the artist to just be complete… and they definitely aren't completely quiet. I think that it's a… it's really a collaborative… like all the work we do, I mean, is collaborative between…

JT: It has to be, it’s the nature of things…

AR:…it's the nature… between each other, between artists, between…

HA: And also to highlight, like our role is to really service the artists. Like that's how I see it from where I stand.

Like all of the other sort of like orbits that revolve around in our ecosystem is really there… to be there to service the artist because let's like look at it in a very linear way, if the artists are not there, there's no art. So there's no market, there's no ecosystem. We do not exist without the artist.

TF: But are you all quite flexible then, if an artist is set on a way of presenting a show and you guys have a different view of it?

AR: It's an interesting question. I like it when an artist is set on the way…

JT: Has a clear vision.

AR: Has a clear vision. Know what they want to… Speak to how they want it to look. I really like that. I also like it when an artist is like, here's my work. Do your thing. Ja.

JT: As you say, they're all different.

AR: Ja. It's all kind of different approaches.

HA: It’s a negotiation at the end of the day, like I think also, especially with solo presentations, then the curator's work is more focused on actually trying to explain the artist's vision to the viewer more than actually, kind of like, focus on what the curator is trying to say.

TF: Question for Jana and Alex: Stevenson and Southern Guild galleries both balance showcasing South African and African artists together with major international names. How do you decide which artists or shows fit this dual mission?

JT: I think a gallery has a voice. You know, there's a binding agent that a gallery… What are we about? Who are we? There needs to be like a clear vision.

What are we trying to say as a collective? Of course there are many, you know, branches that spring off that, but, so Southern Guild… our story is cantered around, I would say, the preservation of culture, ancestry, objects of resonance, and also looking at bringing marginalised voices to the fore.

So be this in, ja, I mean multiple intersections of like people, humanity, sexuality, et cetera. So that would be the binding engine, right? So that's pretty broad, but that's what we're trying to bring to the world.

We're trying to show them that… So when we are starting to work with an artist, we'll see… it'll be natural. Like do they… does their work speak to this or is it completely outside of that then it's probably not a good fit.

So we are… we have a stronghold in South Africa, of course, and a lot of our artists live here and a lot of our African… from the broader Africa artists also live here. We also have artists that live all over the African continent.

But I think having the market in the US, it's natural for us to also want to include artists there. I think that's also authentic. You know, we're not just dropping our voice into a bucket and saying, this is who we are. We are bending and moving.

So over the past, like, ja, two years more intentionally, we've started working with American artists. I mean, mostly in like group show capacities, but if an artist relationship develops quite naturally it will expand into a future solo.

So looking ahead to New York, some of the solo exhibitions we have planned for the next year started with, you know, group shows showing.

So, really, it's the story of the gallery and whether the artist fits into that and whether the artist prescribes to that. You know, some artists are very clear about how they want their work to be shared, and not every gallery is for every artist. So ja, there's a basis, but then it's also just a conversation.

TF: Alex?

AR: Ja, I think it's interesting. It's a… I feel similarly in the sense that I don't think Stevenson wants to be an African only gallery. I think that most galleries are really important to have a broad spread.

There are connections all over the world. I do think the… you know, generally our feel is that we work with artists that want to work with us, I think is what you're saying.

JT: That's a good start.

AR: It's a very good start, and we move from there. But I also think that, like, we wouldn't want to be pigeonholed to this idea of being an African gallery or South African gallery.

JT: Ja. I don't think that's helpful.

AR: Ja. It doesn't help on the broad stage, but also internally. I don't think so. So as long as there's artists that we work with, they can be from anywhere in the world. Is there a connection point to South Africa that's interesting.

Obviously, most issues that artists speak about, not obviously, but a lot of issues that artists speak about can be global or are global. So it really doesn't have to be so focused, necessarily.

But we have artists who live, who are born and raised in France, but they have a lineage that's from kind of West Africa. So are they what… the categorising is difficult. I think sometimes it's important to not categorise as much as we do in art.

HA: If I may add, like I think also the South African art ecosystem moved past that. Moved past, you know, like in the 90s there was a moment of like trying to understand how South Africa reintegrates with the rest of the world.

And it's been 30 years after, you know, apartheid and really, we're like, starting to think about the ecosystem as part of the global ecosystem and connected to the global ecosystem.

Like we have already four galleries that participate at international art fairs consistently. So we… our practitioners and our voices are already part of that global market.

So, like it's kind of part of the natural progression for also local galleries to start expanding their programme. From where I stand, I really think the global majority needs to be talked about in similar terms, and together, because our histories are shared, our struggles post colonialism are also shared.

So there is a lot of learning and a lot of cross-pollinating that we could do when we represent ourselves as a unit.

TF: Jana, how does your own experience as an artist and performer influence how you frame or challenge the narratives within the gallery?

JT: I think that's something I think about a lot, and it's actually… that's something that comes up quite a lot because I think if you haven't come from an artistic background, it's quite difficult to understand the nuances of being an artist.

So I would like to think that I bring a lot of empathy and understanding. I think if you come from a, let's say, a more corporate approach or a business approach, or, you know, just an entrepreneurial approach, it's very hard to understand these nuances.

I mean, I think having gone to art school, knowing the struggles, knowing the… I mean, financial struggles, the mental health struggles, it just brings a new understanding to that.

So I think I can often be the voice of reason and just be like, oh wait, let's consider this in a different way, because, you know, artists are people and they have their own nuances. So, in that way it comes up a lot.

In terms of being a performer, I think, I'm just always my fabulous self and I, and ja, I hope people receive it. And I think the performance aspect helps when you're, let's say on a booth because you get to hold your ground. That's your stage. That's where you can engage with people. 

18:38: Challenging the canon: Cross-regional dialogue and disruption

TF: Hamzeh, you've got an exciting exhibition in Dubai entitled By the Movement of All Things, it features some big South African names like Igshaan Adams and Bronwyn Katz. You've described the exhibition as an invitation for viewers to act upon their curiosity to encounter rather than interpret. What role do you see the audience playing in shaping the works narrative?

HA: A lot. The quick answer. I think what Alex mentioned around not really spoon-feeding the audience, and really kind of shape a narrative in an exhibition is very important.

I am very, very curious about everything and like for me, art has always been that kind of like vehicle for my curiosity and I really kind of wanted to explore that and my curatorial practice right now is looking at really trying to challenge and complicate the dominant canon of knowledge sharing.

Like how can we learn about things in different ways, not by just consuming media or the written word or oral histories, but also through looking at abstract art and understanding, you know, understanding that there's this knowledge that we are getting through an emotive medium, which is not very literal, it's opaque, but at the same time it is valid and we need to sort of think about… So I really, like for instance, in By the Movement of All Things, we don't have any wall text. We just have… the only wall text is a poem by Aimé Césaire that the title was borrowed from and it kind of is a call to action to be curious about the world and to be part of the world.

TF: Sticking with you, Hamzeh, in your view, how can curators disrupt established art narratives that often separate regions like Africa and the Middle East, and instead highlight shared visual languages and philosophical approaches.

HA: Last week I had a conversation with Dr Ridha Moumni, the chairperson of Christie's Africa and Middle East, and I kind of more or less asked him that question. So I'm just going to… share the wisdom by our elder.

He's going to hate me for saying elder… But basically he said three things: It's basically by doing exhibitions, by publishing work and by complicating the narrative. At the end of the day, he said something very interesting,  he said, we're not really rewriting, we're not trying to discount the canon, we're just trying to add onto it and bring our stories…

JT: …and disrupt and confuse and force people to look again.

HA: Ja. I think for me, I kind of like find peace in confusion and complication, like I think… I think it's just, that's how life is. Like life is not linear and it is confusing and dynamic and I think we need to add those narratives into it.

And also understand that abstraction, for instance, which I'm looking very closely at, for the last couple of years, curatorially, is also, it has a far richer history than what we are taught in school and the European and American sort of dominance over it is not the full story. 

22:12: Access and engagement: Social media and audience power

TF: I don't think we can discuss the power of the narrative without talking about social media and the so-called art influencers. How do you think the rise of social media has impacted how art narratives are formed and controlled?

AR: I love an influencer.

JT: Me too!

AR: I think we all…

HA: I think we are from the generation where we are like social media natives. Ja. And it is just part of our work.

JT: It’s another form of knowledge share.

TF: Alex, start with you. You go…

AR: No, I think… I like it. I think that the beauty of it is that it expands the audience, and I think that's a massive thing I do… I would love it if the people also left the screen and came and see… saw the thing in real life. I think that's where real, well not real value, but that's where enhanced value could come in.

I think that it's really cool to see different people's takes on works, people walking through galleries, people explaining things. Because the problem with the art world is that a lot of it is hidden. There's a lot of stuff that not everybody knows. We think everybody, well, I mean we think everybody knows.

HA: We take it for granted…

JT: … because we have this shared language…

AR: Exactly.

JT: We don't even have to speak about it.

AR: Exactly. So I think there is a beauty in its opening up. I do just would… I would hope that it leads to also coming to see the works and then one day buying the work.

JT: I absolute concur with you and I think this idea of looking and coming to look and it… I think it touches on your point as well of just really wanting people to engage with the work in person. I think the art of looking is, I know that is… I don't want to say lost, but it's something that we really need to preserve because…

HA: …and it's a muscle…

JT: Yes, it is completely a muscle. And to allow… I think people need to also allow themselves to sit in boredom. If they struggle with… if they struggle with that to, in boredom comes, ja, they have great moments of epiphanies.

But back to the social media question, it's a tool. I love it when, quote unquote, influencers, young people that are engaging with art, come into the gallery. I have one question, and I'd actually love to hear from you guys, how I could phrase this, but I would love for them to really engage with the work and not just use it as a backdrop for a photo…

TF: …what, like where they look through the phone…

HA: I'm quite philosophical around that. Like I think that might be the entry point, like I think also sometimes we can't force engagement because it will not be genuine engagement, and it's kind of like an entry point. It's like, you know, the first step into the candy store…

JT: Maybe that’s their first day… first time there, maybe the next time they'll have a look… feel more comfortable…

HA: Ja. Exactly. And I think it's like, I think what that does is that it makes sure that access to people that do not feel that that space is theirs becomes more of their space.

And then they'll engage, they'll meet Jana Babez and fall in love with her and Jana Babez doesn't talk about anything else but art. So they will start getting into art…

JT: …of course, no totally open, I guess it's sometimes tricky when work is quite particular, like let's say it's talking about gender based violence or it's… there's a real important issue at play and, you know, it's also the gallerist’s… speaking of the narrative, it's also the gallerist's responsibility to make sure that the artist's work is expressed in the right way.

I think a way to combat this or to help it is, go after them, how are you guys doing? Have you seen the work here…

TF: Is it a being in the moment question? So instead of staring through your phone, and like actually appreciating the work in front of you before you record.

HA: We can't dictate how the audience engage with the artwork. I think it… they need to intuitively find the right way for them.

TF: So, Jana, as African art continues to grow in the global recognition, what kind of stories do you hope to find in the next decade?

JT: I have noticed, and I think it's just a… it's kind of how art societies work… when you go to a lot of galleries in Europe, there's a lot of assemblage, abstraction because that is kind of the path that gets followed in what artists are interested in.

They might be interested in identity at first, then they might move into abstraction. There's also, of course, cross pollination, and there's artists that are interested in one thing their whole life, which is also fabulous.

But I think there's a new maturity, I'm interested in seeing the breakdown of sort of traditional artworks of things coming out of the canvas, more installation-based work, also engaging with the broader world, not having it just so localised in terms of, ja, your sort of like political interests, et cetera.

I don’t know an exact answer of what I'm looking for, it's kind of one of those like you know, when you see it, but just a boldness to be creative. I mean, I always go to the grad shows, I love to see what the kids are up to…

TF: I love the grad shows. I encourage all the new collectors to do that because for me, that's amazing. That's your next platform to the galleries.

JT: I'm always so just enthused. 

27:03: No budget: A hypothetical collection

TF: So as we wrap up, I want to ask you, if you had an unlimited budget, which artist would you buy for your personal collection and why? And start with Alex again and move down.

AR: This is an easy one actually. There's an abstract expressionist artist called Clyfford Still. He makes these kind of quite incredible paintings. I don't really have a reason other than I saw a group of them at the RA a few years ago and I was just completely blown away.

They were like, my background on, I'm sure there's lots of cooler answers I could say, but the honest one is that, ja, probably that.

JT: I'll definitely be looking that up. I'm going to be naughty and I'm going to give you two answers. I think locally, just because it's had such an impact on me, and even when I see this artist’s work abroad, is Ernest Mancoba. It just, it dances it... I can look at it for hours. It reveals itself more over time.

I mean, the Iziko has a wonderful example. It's actually my favourite example that I've seen in person. But no, no, no budget. That was no budget. But this one's no, no, no, no budget, would be a Cy Twombly that I saw at the Art Institute in Chicago, again, it's these works that kind of reveal themselves over time.

It's through looking and trying to decode the symbols and the marks and every… I've also been back to visit it a few times; it reveals something else to me. I think Cy’s work does that...

TF: And Hamzeh, you?

HA: I, like, my approach was a bit similar to Jana’s. Like I think the way that I think about buying an artwork is always relative to collection building. So it was like it went, I went on a spiral because of your question. I think the only way that I wrapped my head around it was like, oh, I'm just like, if budget is no, you know, no object.

Then I'm just going to build a whole collection in a sense, in my mind, in order to answer that question. And like currently, I'm at three artists that I would like to have in my hypothetical collection, if I'm a billionaire. One is Agnes Martin, Simone Fattal and Mona Saudi. So there are two Middle Eastern artists. One American.

TT: Of course, the art advisor couldn't choose one. He's building a collection.

TF: You chose two.

JT: We went 1, 2, 3…

29:35: Conclusion

TF: Thank you to all our listeners for tuning into the special edition Investec Focus Radio vodcast series, Art in Focus. It's been an absolute pleasure being your host and guiding what I hope has been a valuable and entertaining conversation of African contemporary art. You can also find all the episodes of this series at investec.com/artinfocus, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate it, leave a comment, and forward it to your friends and colleagues.

 

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