The business of art

Podcast transcript: scroll to the areas that interest you

• TF: Tristanne Farrell, Investec Wealth and Investment International, Senior Investment manager
• FC: Frank Kilbourn, Strauss & Co., Executive Director
• AM: Ashleigh McLean, Whatiftheworld gallery, Co-founder

   

00:00: Intro

TF: Welcome to series two of Art In Focus, an Investec Focus Radio podcast launched to coincide with the Investec Cape Town Art Fair, the largest contemporary art fair on the African continent. I'm your host, Tristanne Farrell. I'm a senior investment manager at Investec Wealth and Investment International, and a passionate art collector.

Over the next few weeks, I'll be welcoming an extraordinary lineup of guests into my home: curators, collectors, and artists who are shaping the way we value and experience African art. We kick off with series two with a discussion on the business of art and how gallerists, auctioneers, and artists navigate volatile market cycles.

How do galleries balance curatorship, commerce and care for artists and clients in such a shifting environment? 

00:47: Introduction of guests

TF: Let's meet my guests. Frank Kilbourn, you are a prominent collector, entrepreneur, philanthropist, and executive chairman of Strauss and Co. Someone whose leadership and passion have played a defining role in shaping the secondary market in South Africa.

Ashleigh McLean, you’re a leading gallerist and curator of Whatiftheworld, a gallery known for discovering and championing some of South Africa's most important emerging voices and for shaping the careers of artists now recognised globally. Welcome to my home and thank you for your time today.

FK: Thank you. Thank you. Wonderful to be here. 

01:19: Guests personal journeys into the art world

TF: So before we start on the market dynamics, could you tell our listeners a short intro into your personal journeys into the art world? Ash, do you wanna kick off?

AM: Ja, so I actually started out as an artist, originally, not as a formally trained artist… I was, uh, kind of like more of a, sort of, I don't know, street punk kinda burn-it-down sort of artist. And then I did actually study art at Michaelis. When I finished my degree. I was looking for a place to exhibit with my friends, and I happened to meet Justin, my now partner at the same time, at that time, and he actually had studied sort of kind of NGO grassroots NGO work and had bought a small space on Hope Street, where he was actually living also at the time. And he sort of said, well, I wanna do something with art, but I don't really know any artists – do you wanna put together a show? So we did. And then I sort of slowly graduated more onto the sort of curatorial side of things, mostly bringing in artists that were kind of sitting in that sort of limbo zone between university and kind of a bigger gallery 'cause at the time it was really kind of Goodman and you know, a couple of others that were existing. So we started out really as a sort of Petri dish…

TF: …and you don't practice art anymore?

AM: I do a lot of critique, and I do… I assist with quite a lot of production with our artists who… especially who are experiencing or experimenting with different media.

So, because I've kind of done, you know, everything from like bronze casting to textile art, to, you know, everything in between. I've dabbled in quite a lot of things. I at least can help with a little bit of the… I'm like the steering committee, the technical steering committee in some of these things.

TF: And Frank, your formative years were spent on a farm, so how did art find you?

FK: Well, I did grow up on a farm in the Northwest. We farmed maize and cattle and yes, there were no really good art galleries nearby, so I didn't have a lot of exposure to the art ecosystem as a kid. But my mom had these books called “Ons Kuns” which in those years were edition one, two, and three… And they were always there and I read them, but really a couple of things spurred me on.

The one was, I was very naughty at school and then I got really bored and, you know, eventually they got tired of, you know, trying to hit me to silence… And they sent me to the school library, because I'm in a very small school, and so while they… so not to bother the other kids, I'm sitting in the school library and decided to read all the books in the school library.

So eventually you get to the book about the major composers and the major artists. So I read about them, sort of in the abstract form, not having a clue. You know, in those days, all the reproductions were in black and white as well. So you know, it was quite amazing when you discovered that art has got a lot of colour. And then we had some art in the home… And through tragic circumstances, my mother lost her sight. And I was 12, 13 years old and my mother wanted to continue living as though she was a person who could see. So one of the things she started doing was collecting art again. And it weren't very fancy art, but there were these art traders that came around in their kombis… My mother said, okay, I want a landscape, and the guys take out the landscapes. And you know, and I said, oh, there's a tree and a mountain. My mother said, “No, what can I do with that information? What type, you know, what time of year is it? What type of tree is it? Is the tree in the front or back…?”

And eventually I got to focus and really try and explain to my mom in the most detail possible, you know, what the picture comprised. And I think through that process I learned a few things. The one was to suspend my prejudice and my impatience. Second to look, and to really look and then to find a way to talk about the art. And when I went to the University of Johannesburg, it was then known as Rand Afrikaans University, I one day passed a very noisy gathering on the way to the Latin class, and here Armando Baldinelli had an exhibition that was opened by Walter Battiss, Cecil Skotness, Edoardo Villa, and they were talking about the work and I stopped and I listened to them and I fell in love and I knew one day if life works out, I'm gonna be an art collector.

TF: Brilliant. Okay. So it's worked out for you so far?

FK: Ja, it's still in process.

TF: So the wheels are still in process. 

05:48: Understanding the Primary and Secondary art markets

TF: So between the two of you, you've got experience in the primary and secondary markets. And for our listeners who don't know, the primary market is the place where the initial sales will take place, such as galleries, and the secondary market is where the secondary sales will take place through auction houses.

So Frank, how do the primary and secondary markets differ in their roles and pricing power, and would you say the secondary market regulates the pricing of the primary market?

FK: I think all markets are driven by supply and demand in the end. And information, and the development of the ecosystem around that information is very critical in determining the price of anything, like shares, you know, you get an analyst’s report, it's daily published and… Almost every company in South Africa at some point in time are overvalued and undervalued relative to it peers.

And the mere fact you bought it today doesn't guarantee that the price will go up in future. I think the art market, the pricing in the art market work very similarly.

At the primary market that Ashleigh is more qualified to talk about than me, they make the initial pricing and they work with the artists and they launch the artists into the market.

In the secondary market, we provide liquidity. Should that person decide to sell, who bought that work, in time… and it's extremely important that that liquidity mechanism is there because you can't expect the person to have an artwork for life. Taste change, things happen. And I think in the secondary market, there's another supply and demand equation that takes place. And, obviously, artist’s careers also develop over time and they have periods which are higher rated than other periods.

When you're in the primary market where Ashleigh and them are, it's more difficult, you try and build show on show on show, get more collectors in, build a brand, take them to international things, and slowly, but surely build the market, and I think that is fantastic.

At the secondary market, we can't do it, but what we can do is to take cognisance of where that artists are relative to his peers, what's happening in the world, and then we do pricing accordingly.

So, I think in a perfect universe, you know, we just continue where the gallery sort of stop, maybe, especially if artists is not producing anymore. The reality is, the secondary market is significantly impacted by external factors that has almost nothing to do with the quality of the artwork or the artist itself. 

08:09: Market dynamics and pricing strategies

TF: Ashleigh, just following on from that, in times of market downturn, when the secondary sales drop below gallery prices, should galleries adjust their pricing to accommodate these market cycles or merely ride through these transition periods? Would auction houses adapt to this to? I'm not sure how it works.

AM: I've never, ever, ever adjusted any of the prices that I've given artists based on what happens in the auctions. Like never… To me, what happens in the auction stays in the auction. No, but in a way because I mean, I often find with the auction, there are so many variables and often it's, you know, who's in the room at that moment and like, you know, what are they willing to pay for that object or that thing? And like what are the things that are motivating them? I mean, there's also a lot of kind of like pageantry and performance that happens in the auctions I think sometimes. I mean, I have quite a few clients or… they aren't my clients, but I discuss artwork with them who don't like to buy from the galleries.You know, they like to buy from the auction. So there's a lot of other dynamics that are governing. So I would never adjust my prices based on what happens in the auctions… some galleries would, I mean, for example, we had a very high…we had an artwork that sold for a very high price at Strauss…that photograph of Athi’s that… I think it was the most expensive photograph sold on auction in South Africa.

FK: Yes, correct.

AM:. That thing, you know, I think, you know, the auctions often have anomalies, you know, so what happened with Athi there was an anomaly. I mean, I could have potentially the next day gone and said, oh, well, you know, this is what happened at auction. And obviously people… there was a brief moment where there was that kind of window for doing that. But my whole strategy is sustainability. You know, I like to play the long game, so I didn't actually adjust upwards to take that into cognisance, I thought, you know, we do a small, incremental recognition of that external validation and then we continue on our path because we need to think about a 20 year trajectory.

FK: I think Ashleigh is 100% correct and remember at an auction it takes two persons who are really interested to lift the price quite significantly. What is very important for us are the estimates that we make. And the estimates are very much driven by long-term trends, not short-term…

TF: …because you could be doing an injustice to the artist as well. If you out price them or put the works too high, then no one wants to buy.

AM: Sometimes there are factors beyond our control. So say for example, the the last five years of this kind of, sort of… or maybe it's even longer, this interest particularly in say African portraiture. You know, you had a lot of artists whose works were, I think, quite unscrupulously overvalued a lot by, also people in the primary market, also people in the international primary market. It was a bubble. The art world likes to pretend that it's not like other commodities, but it actually… it really is. And I personally feel that people should take cognisance of that. Like this is a banking podcast, so obviously we are talking about money, but I mean there are lots of other metrics on which value is attributed to an artwork. Which is why I find it so interesting because it's one of the only commodities in the sort of capitalist system that's like a really, really slippery fish. It kind of defies the laws of gravity sometimes in how these things operate. So, ja.

TF: So Frank, just on that then, as a collector with your collector's hat on, if galleries are not adjusting their prices, why would you pay a higher premium on a work on the primary market versus secondary market? Is it because you like the work? Is it type of work? What would be the reasoning?

FK: Well you can maybe ask the same way, why have I sometimes paid a lot more than the estimate at the auction for a particular work? And I think it's, you know, I would always encourage people that if you are serious about something and you want to allocate significant amounts of your time and capital to it, is to do your homework and your research.

But art is a wonderful thing it allows you to also fall in love with the work… to have a different reaction. I very seldom fell in love with the share. Even though it might have done well or badly for me. Ja. So when the artwork… you have that subjective thing and you think it fits into my collection, or it just knocks my socks off and it just blows my mind and it lightens my heart and I want to have it, I think it's gonna change my life for the better… which I always say are the primary reasons why you should buy art. These qualitative factors don't come into it. You miss out on a big part of the return that you get. And when you get that work, and I go to Ash and I think, wow, it's quite expensive, but as I think this work has got lasting value and it talked to me in that way, then I'm very happy to pay that price.

And the same when it comes to auction, I might pay a lot more… double or whatever the estimates were because you see something and sometimes you change the trend and sometimes it doesn't. But I think, it should be… to get joy out of it, it should remain a very personal decision, I think.

TF: Ja. So Frank, you spoke about the estimates in the secondary market. How do you do this? And then Ash, how would you price your art in the primary market?

FK: If it's a artist that's currently still producing works, obviously we look at… we would consult the gallery and get an estimation from it. Normally, your client gives you the first estimation what they want for the work or what they need to get out for the work, and that's in context.

But then most artists, we have a proven track record. We research… we keep an incredible database at Strauss & Co. that's accessible to the public. Every single work we've ever sold, there's high resolution picture, the price it was sold for, and even when it's unsold, what the estimates were. So we have a lot of historic data to go back on and to make an estimation, and then we try and that's where the skill comes in, to weight that numerical average against the time. You know, is this artist on the rise? Is it down? Do we need to encourage bidding? Lately, we've asked people to drop some of the estimates in the past because we saw that we needed to introduce more competition, more action into the auctions, and then we get to the right price. So, it's a combination of factors, but the historical data is a critical part. And I think then the assessment of current market conditions are quite critical in doing that, which I don't think is that different from what you do Ash?

AM: I think it's interesting for me because obviously when I'm looking at an artwork that's just come from the studio in the same way that Frank's clients might say to them, I would like to get this much money for my artwork, I have some artists who undervalue themselves, like who have very little self-belief, and then I have some artists who have enormous egos and over and not overvalue their work because… it's very difficult, I often say to the artists, what people are willing to pay for your work is not what your artwork is worth.

So you may, as a young artist believe that you should be charging R50,000 for your first painting, and I'm going to say to you, no, you can't be charging that because there are all of these other artists that have a much… so we look at also historical data. We look at other people that are working in a similar… maybe it's a… that have done, you know, that have done certain things in their careers that are working in similar media, you know, where they are. Also obviously, you know, people often say that galleries are like gatekeepers and taste makers, you know, I mean, I wish I was, no, I don't wish I was one of those things, but you know, it is actually also a very personal decision because I'm making a decision based on what I think something is worth. It is my opinion.

FK: Ja, maybe the last thing to say that having an auction or having an exhibition costs a considerable amount of money, time, and effort. So the last thing we need is an auction in which only 50% of the works sell. So we've got two competing forces. On the one hand we want as high a sell-through rate as possible. And you can only achieve that if the prices, for people, are very attractive. At the same time, we are also the custodian of art history and we can't, and won't ignore what the value of the works, and what it was sold for in the past. We only exist if people both buy and sell. We can't just live on the sell side or the buy side.

So we have to find that balance between where the market moves… and it's fascinating and it's sometimes you get caught out by how rapidly the market can change. If you look at our last auction, we sold R50 million worth of artworks over two days, which is the best result we've had in quite a long time.

We sold over 80% of everything we presented. We sold those initial, early drawings of Kentridge, of the animals. We sold at three times the estimates that we put onto it, and we worked with William’s studio in determining the pricing, they’ve never been on the market, they're unique and I love the fact how people embraced that and really there was ferocious bidding for it.

But what was interesting about this sale is that we didn’t… the most expensive work was R3.5 million and I think we managed to make the pricing attractive and accessible, but a very broad audience bought, whereas in the past, often we made the prices very attractive and people still didn't buy. And that's quite, it's very difficult, you know, but it's not a perfect world. But I hope Ash that, I think there's a bit of new optimism in South Africa, I think, in the future, and hopefully, you know, we can all benefit from that. 

17:44: Building and sustaining an artist’s career

TF: Frank, in your experience, what role do galleries and auction houses each play in building and sustaining an artist's career?

FK: Well, I think the burden eventually passes from the primary gallery during the life of artists to the auction houses and the secondary market over time. I think in South Africa… and to museums of course… And you know, people… I think in South Africa at Strauss & Co., we are almost the custodians of our art history. We publish more, we research more. We do educationals, we sponsor lectures, we sponsor exhibitions. We sponsor books. You know, we do a lot of things that an auction house wouldn't normally do because the art eco-system is relatively lean. All of us have to do much more. So we've got no desire to be the custodian of a young emerging artist’s career. We are not geared for it. We don't want to go there. But of course, as trends change, we would like work to come to us, say five years after it was made, but sometimes it'll be two years. And then we sit with that thing and then we try and work very closely with the galleries to protect what everyone has been building.

And I just wanna say, you know, in our job what is also important, you're a custodian of the country's art history. You also… if you look at the total inventory of art, your total amount of art that's handled by Strauss in the times since we create it, say, you know, how many billion rand, say R2.5 billion worth of art that sold, people bought from us at a certain price point. So we try our best to keep the market informed enough that in a healthy and sustainable way, that market is sustained. So we reinvest everything. Like now we believe artists like Venning and Maud Sumner and even Maggie, you know, they're all significantly undervalued. If you look at their peers across the world and you look at the quality of their work, they can compete anytime… they're 10 cents in the rand versus their peers internationally. So we feel very passionate that they deserve their moment in time.

TF: Can galleries represent living artists and deceased artists?

AM: Yes, they can. We do quite a lot of exhibitions in Italy and we work with quite a lot of Italian collectors and I love the way that they work because they've been doing it for such a long time.

Owning an art gallery in Italy is almost like a family business. You know, the gallery might pass from the grandfather to the father, to the son, I mean, hopefully maybe sometimes to the daughter as well, or the mother to the daughter. But you have these kind of gallerists that have overseen. An entire life and that will stay within that stable.

So maybe as the South African art market kind of, or the artists in the galleries kind of develop to that level, I mean, that might also be something that starts to automatically happen.

TF: If I was a new collector, how would you advise I navigate the primary and secondary market. And which artists would you be buying right now?

AM: If you were a new collector, I mean, like Frank says, you know, the best thing you can do is do your research and I think it's important to identify, kind of, stylistically what it is that you're interested in. Also keep an eye on the auctions. You know, you can get some really good deals sometimes, because not everybody's gonna like what you like.

That's the whole thing with artwork is that, you know, everything appeals to somebody different.

TF: And an artist to by now as a new collector?

AM: I would suggest an artist, his name is Wezile Harmans. I think he has a lot of potential. His work has a lot of intellectual depth. I think he's starting to explore like different modes of materiality. He's got meat on his bones, you know, and he's got some life experience, even though he is, I'd say in his late twenties, early thirties, and he's now only entering into the visual arts space. He was a performance artist and an academic. He's someone that I would definitely purchase one of his works.

TF: So Frank, you have an amazing collection of work, and I think a lot of the country knows about it because you openly speak about it. You're a huge advocate for the art world. You recently loaned a work to the Pompidou in Paris this year, and the work, uh, was a self-portrait from 1947 by Gerard Sekoto. How significant was this for you personally and for your collection?

FK: Looking back at it, it's almost still difficult to actually think it really happened. You know, it was…I always liked the Pompidou building because it's sort of an inside, outside building, you know, the intestines are on the outside, you know, and the galley is sommer hidden inside.

And so I always liked the building, just because of the thought behind the design of the building. And, the second thing I always, in the beginning really only collected abstract art. I didn't really collect realistic art at all because somehow I thought for art to be really art, it had to be abstract, that I had to think really hard about it, and over time, as you learn more, you realise it's a much broader field than that. So I very quickly, you know, very early in my life bought my first gouache from the Senegal Period from Sekoto, partly because I read his story earlier and, and it was such a poignant story for me.

And because he battled a lot to get recognition. So to own the self portrait, which was a very expensive painting in that time, and really the most money I paid for a painting for years was a very significant jump in our collection. A very significant commitment we made at the time. It went to Venice, and it was sad because that's the first time the work of Sekoto went to Venice Biennale. So it went to Venice first, and then they asked if we can go to the Paris Noir exhibition at the Pompidou where it stayed for a couple of months and then ended up as being a flagship work, the poster work of the thing.

And for most collectors, it's most probably once in your collecting lifetime. So, it was amazing because it came out of the blue. 

23:26: Current market trends and shifts

TF: So just turning to both of you now, I want to get your take on the market trends. What are we observing currently? Are there any shifts? What are we seeing from collectors?

AM: I would definitely say that the pendulum has well and truly swung away from figurative representation, but I would like to think that the move towards abstraction is reflective of us moving from a kind of like, sort of teenage stage into more of a kind of a deeper thinking about how, particularly in our own context, we look at the legacy, all the difficult legacies that we have here and, and the different permutations that they can take. So I would say definitely abstraction… and I definitely think there seems to be a resurgence, I'm hoping a resurgence and interest in kind of sculptural works, and obviously materiality, I think has been a trend for quite some time now. It's something that I’ve… Justin and I are like magpies, like that's our thing, you know, if something's got a complicated surface or very time consuming or the medium is in some way the message, you know, I've always been very interested how material can become a sort of a physical embodiment of a conceptual idea. So, I don't think that's gonna get tired anytime soon, but that seems to be kind of holding its ground.

TF: Frank, would you agree with that?

FK: Yeah, I think one must distinguish between long-term trends, short-term trends, and these super-heated little bubbles. You know, African figuration was like a super bubble, uh, having been in the art world for a long time, you knew it. But still, you almost couldn't stop people from still going down there. Now we are getting a lot of those works in the secondary market, which we can't sell for, you know… we can sell for 10% of what it was at it’s peak, but most probably below what its real value is because people, you know, they buy, it's super fashionable, then it falls out fashion, then people want to liquidate at the same time to pursue the next fashion or the next trend.

And, and that makes both of our lives quite complicated in this thing. I think African figuration was a classic example like that. I think long-term trends, they rebalance between say, male and female artists, you know, that is gonna be a long-term trend. Long-term, there are two main issues that artists have been focusing on, one is the environment and the second one was migration and then over that is sexual politics and then socioeconomic situations. I think those trends will continue, but artists are very much influenced by what's happening around them. And I think it's also good to buy into these moments in time because they tell a little bit of what was happening in the world, how the artists reacted to that. So I do still love buying works, even now from the fifties or the sixties or the seventies or the riots or things like that, which captured that moment in time.

AM: I think what you said about the rebalancing between male and female artists, I also wonder if it's got something to do with the kind of subsiding of cancel culture in a way. You know, like I feel like there was, I mean this is probably quite a contentious thing to say, but you know, because white male artists have traditionally, I don't know, whatever, over the last 500 years or something dominated and, and are still dominating in the auction houses and the sales and all of that sort of stuff. You know, there was this kind of knee jerk reaction to say, now we need to do this very quick correct of this imbalance that's happened. And I think that, that in a way, it must still continue because it was a very kind of, in a way it was a very sort of superficial, you know, superficial correction.

Actually, when I go back to that question you asked me earlier about as a young collector, what would I suggest that people buy? And actually my normal rote answer that I give at the gallery is, I do say buy women's, buy the artwork, artwork of female artists. If also from an investment point of view, because as a general rule, except for these kind of very high achievers, their work is greatly undervalued compared to their male compatriots.

So you can get, you know, a work of outstanding quality for 30% less than you would… I know… and it's crazy… 

FK: I think internationally, I don't think so much here… 

AM: Ja, maybe internationally, but sort of as a general thing. I mean obviously that's something that I've been saying probably for the last three years, and hopefully it is something that is starting to shift. It's a strange situation because I'm obviously one of the people that sets the prices for these works.

TF: So on those market shifts, you and I had a discussion in the gallery about Africa being this big theme and everyone collecting Africa, and we suggested maybe that Aboriginal art was now coming into the form, I mean, what's your view on that and what's your take on that?

AM: Again, I mean, I think it's this sort of mercutial nature of the art market and this desire for uncharted territories. You know, I think those are market forces. They are rapacious. And I also think it's a lot of speculation. I mean, that's, that's what happens at a particular kind of layer. It's the people that are wanting to buy early, sell high. And it's also… there is a kind of a dark side to it because I think that, you know, a lot of the people that are collecting work are still obviously wealthy, predominantly Caucasian male individuals. And this, I don't think the desire for something exotic is new. Even if we look at somebody like Irma Stern, you know, she herself was an artist who was in pursuit of,, depicting the exoticised other, and that is still… when everyone looks at sort of, I know colonial tropes, I can't get out of that because so many of the artists I'm working with are… that is their mode of thinking. So my brain often goes in that direction, but there is this desire to kind of exploit an untapped resource in a way or to kind of… I don't know. I mean, maybe that's a more cynical view, but I do think there is some kind of attraction of the other.

FK: If I can just maybe give a slightly different perspective to it Ashleigh is that I think artists, by, their creative natures always explore new boundaries.You refer to new materials. I mean, that is super exciting for me and also this blurring the lines between installation, sculpture and architecture. Fabrics. Billie Zangewa’s works will not be nearly the same if it weren’t for the fabric and the sort of half incompleteness. So, it's a very abstract gesture. At the same time, it's a very domestic gesture working with stitching and these… So I love the way artists are constantly forcing us to look at artwork and the world differently.

TF: I have to say it's been incredibly inspiring listening to you both on the primary and secondary markets, and I'm fascinated how you work so well together in the ecosystem and it really is inspiring to know that you all support each other in this structure.

30:49: Dream art acquisitions

TF: But I have one question to pose to both of you and we’re asking everyone this question in Art In Focus: If you had an unlimited budget, which artwork would you buy for your personal collection?

FK: I would like to buy a large scale Brett Murray… I have some of his smaller scale work, but I think he's just… there’s so much humour, finesse, skill, and quintessentially about South Africa where we can laugh at ourselves. I think that's one of his most endearing qualities, and he personifies that for me. And I think, I would like to buy a large scale colonial landscape of Kentridge because I think there's something about that transition of time that he captures there, which I think will make it my two things…I mean, of course I'll buy if I can a lot more Igshaan Adams, thing, because I think he's changing the world as we go. But I mean, I can only pick one. So there you have my one.

TF: Ash, what's yours?

AM: I would actually… it's a bit potentially macabre, but I would love to buy maybe two Cindy Sherman photographs. And potentially from her clowns series, which are really kind of, sort of dark, but they definitely represent the sort of, strange out of body female experience for me. And then another work that I've always, another artist that I've always absolutely loved and it's so, so different to Cindy Sherman is Alighiero Boetti, who is obviously you know a master and it is just so interesting also in terms of the kind of materiality of his work.

TF: Thank you to both of you.

So thank you all our listeners for tuning into this special edition of Investec Focus Radio vodcast series, Art In Focus. I look forward to seeing you at the Investec Cape Town Art Fair from Friday the 20th to Sunday the 22nd of February.

You can also find all the episodes of the series at investec.com/artinfocus, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please rate it, leave a comment, and forward it to your friends and colleagues.

39:16: Closing and where to subscribe to listen to the series

TF: Great. Thank you both for joining us today. I really appreciate all the views and the thoughts we've shared.

We'll see you both at the Investec Cape Town Art Fair in February the largest contemporary art fair on the continent that brings Africa to the world and the world to Africa.

[00:39:16] Thank you. Awesome. Thanks for listening to this episode of Art in Focus, brought to you by Investec Focus Radio. You can find all these episodes of the series at investec. com forward slash art in focus, or wherever you get all your podcasts. If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate it, leave a comment and forward it to all your friends and colleagues.

[00:39:43] Disclaimer: The views expressed are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily represent the views of the firm and should not be taken as advice or recommendations. Investec Bank Ltd. An authorized financial services provider and registered credit provider.

 

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