Contact
Search
Close

Popular searches

Two colleague chatting infront of green plants in the background

09 Feb 2026

Changing Minds, Changing Markets

 

In this episode, Marc Kahn, our Chief Strategy and Sustainability Officer, and Lindsay Hooper, CEO of Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership, interview Michael Liebreich, Managing Partner, EcoPragma Capital & CEO, Liebreich Associates, and Rory Sutherland, Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK and behavioural science commentator, about winning support for climate and energy transition in the face of sociopolitical pendulum swings on the subject. Our guests bust some of the many myths that abound and focus their energy on climate action realities.

 

Key takeaways

  • Changing markets depends on changing minds as much as changing technologies.
  • Climate action succeeds when it is affordable, practical and trusted.
  • Transitions work by scaling the new before shutting down the old.
  • Behavioural insight is as important as engineering in designing solutions.
  • Leaders must focus on credible delivery, not performative signals.
Listen to the podcast

In this episode of podcast series, What Next?  Michael Liebreich and Rory Sutherland lift the lid on how to shift behaviour at scale to achieve the energy transition. Marc Khan and Lidnsey Hooper interview the pair on the sociopolitical backlash we have seen in some sectors with regard to climate action. The views in this podcast are those of the contributors, and don’t necessarily represent those of CISL, the University of Cambridge, or Investec, and should not be taken as advice or a recommendation.

Michael Liebreich, Managing Partner, EcoPragma Capital & CEO, Liebreich Associates
Michael Liebreich, Managing Partner, EcoPragma Capital & CEO, Liebreich Associates

The transition isn’t dead — it’s slow, uneven and exactly how real transitions have always worked.

Photo credit: Liebreich Associates

Rory Sutherland, Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK and behavioural science commentator
Rory Sutherland, Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK and behavioural science commentator

If you present people with a deal where they are only a loser, don’t be surprised when they reject it.

Chapter notes | Scroll to the areas that interest you

  • Chapter 1 - Why Transitions Don’t Happen Overnight (00:00–08:00)

    The episode opens by challenging the idea that the energy transition has failed. Michael Liebreich explains why real-world transitions are gradual and uneven, while Rory Sutherland uses behavioural analogies to show why parallel adoption, rather than immediate replacement, is how markets actually change.

    Key themes:

    • How technological transitions really unfold
    • Growth of clean solutions before displacement
    • Lessons from past market shifts

  • Chapter 2 - Backlash, Behaviour and Broken Narratives (08:00–18:30)

    The conversation turns to why resistance to climate action is growing. Rory Sutherland explores psychological reactance and why people push back when change feels imposed, while Michael Liebreich examines how misinformation, exaggerated claims and high costs damage trust and slow progress. They also identify over-hyped technologies and alarmist scenarios as factors in weakening public confidence and crowding out more effective approaches.

    Key themes:

    • Behavioural responses to climate messaging
    • The role of misinformation and media dynamics
    • Why fear-based narratives can backfire

  • Chapter 3 - Designing Markets That People Say Yes To (18:30–32:30)

    As climate action increasingly depends on behaviour change, the guests discuss why policy and market design must reflect lived reality. They argue for focusing on affordability, incentives and timing — particularly at natural replacement points — rather than forcing premature or costly change.

    Key themes:

    • Aligning incentives with real behaviour
    • Affordability and fairness as enablers of change
    • Market design over moral instruction

  • Chapter 4 - Pragmatic Leadership for Systemic Change (32:30–48:00)

    In the final chapter, the discussion looks ahead to what effective leadership now requires. Michael Liebreich highlights electrification and scaling proven solutions, while Rory Sutherland emphasises optimism, abundance and better storytelling as tools for shifting mindsets and accelerating market change.

    Key themes:

    • Scaling what already works
    • Moving beyond symbolic actions
    • Leadership that builds trust and momentum
What next? leadership conversations

What next? Leadership conversations for a better future

Podcast series hosted by Marc Kahn, our Chief Strategy and Sustainability Officer, and Lindsay Hooper, CEO at the University of Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership (CISL).

View podcast series

Receive Focus insights straight to your inbox

* indicates required field.
Enter your name here *

This information is required

Minimum characters 1

This is a required field.

Enter your surname here *

This information is required

Minimum characters 1

This is a required field.

Enter your email address here *

This information is required

Minimum characters 1

Please enter a valid email address

This field is required

Enter other service here

This information is required

Minimum characters 1

YYYY *

This information is required

Minimum characters 1

This is a required field

Please complete all required fields before sending.

Thank you

We look forward to sharing out of the ordinary insights with you

Disclaimer

Focus and its related content is for informational purposes only. The opinions featured on the site are not to be considered as the opinions of Investec and do not constitute financial or other advice. The information presented is subject to completion, revision, verification and amendment.

More sustainability insights from Investec

Previous
Previous

Browse further in