Jeremy: This is No Ordinary Wednesday, and let's return now to our conversation.
Ryan, back to you.
Advanced economies now face tougher scrutiny over debt and deficits. Do you think fiscal policy has become as important as monetary policy, particularly for bond markets?
Ryan: I think if you're looking at global bond markets at the moment, both monetary and fiscal policy are both a consideration.
Wouldn't necessarily say there's a primacy of either of them at the moment. I think the situation is dynamic, and it really depends on what is happening at the time and which country you're specifically talking about. I think if we're looking at fixed income markets at the moment, really it's the Middle Eastern developments which is the main focus, given the implications for inflation and consequently monetary policy.
But we know that the fiscal picture remains challenging across many of the advanced market economies. If you were to take the UK, for example, debt to GDP this year is estimated at around 95%. If you take the US, that stands at about 100% and is only expected to rise further in the coming years. Trying to disentangle fiscal concerns in bond pricing is perhaps not as clear-cut as it can be in emerging markets at times.
I think what we have seen in recent years is a rising term premium and an underperformance at the longer end of some sovereign curves, and that provides some indication that from the fiscal metrics, the outlook is on markets' minds.
I think, though, in terms of real fiscal pressures, those worries only really show up in bond markets when you've really got a problem.
And I think if you were to take the UK as an example, former Prime Minister Liz Truss' ill-fated mini budget in 2022 provided a prime example of that.
Jeremy: Annabel, fiscal credibility remains central to South Africa's investment case. What do you think markets would need to see by the end of the year to believe that our path is improving?
Annabel: I think we've already seen an improvement in our perception from financial markets, and that of course talks to the fact that we've already seen a credit rating upgrade last year from Standard & Poor's, and of course this year as well from Fitch, and in fact, even Moody's has put us on a positive outlook as well.
These are all recognition of the fact that our government finance has turned a corner, that there's not an expectation that we're going to continue to see, for example, rising debt, and in fact, we've actually seen a primary surplus as well. Overall, the impact from the Middle East is not anticipated to cause a negative impact on government finances from the point of view of government absorbing the cut in the general fuel price levy to aid motorists in South Africa.
There is likely to be some impact on GDP growth, and here we obviously talk to the fact that import costs have rised very substantially because of the fact that the oil and most importantly petroleum products that import into South Africa have really doubled in terms of cost and that has obviously caused South Africa to see, a negative impact on our trade account, which will obviously have some impact on our GDP growth as well.
Financial markets want to continue to see fiscal consolidation in South Africa. That's what they want to continue to track, to believe that we're on a steady upward trajectory. And of course, the mini budget towards the end of this year will be key, as will continued careful expenditure and continued growth support as well.
Jeremy: So Annabel, you talk about the fiscal consolidation. In this world then where all governments are needing capital, what must South Africa do to avoid being treated simply as optional?
Annabel: I think it comes very much back to the return we can give investors. Talking not only on the bond market, but in terms of equity markets as well, and in terms of fixed investment, South Africa needs to show that it's a good investment case.
But from a bond perspective, what's helped us very much has been the fact that our borrowing costs have dropped down very substantially. Bond yields, which were above 12% in 2024, have actually dropped down to 8% and even below 8% before the Middle East war. Perhaps since the war, they might be running closer to 8.50, 8.40, but really there's pressure for bond yields to come down further as well.
What this really means is that you're experiencing a lower cost of funding government, and this has been key in improving the fiscal outlook for South Africa. In other words, embedding not only rating agencies' perceptions, but also for financial market investors as well, globally or domestically, that South Africa is a solid investment case, and that we are able to finance our government debt.
I think from that perspective, it increases the safety perhaps, although there always is some risk. But it will increase the ability for investors to continue to place money in South Africa.
We've seen a lot of foreign investment in South Africa. But what will help, you know will be South Africa managing to get back into its investment-grade credit rating, a status that it had.
Now, we're generally on a double B. We were on a double B minus, and expectations with these positive outlooks that a number of rating agencies still have us on means that we can go to double B plus. They're indicating we'll go to double B plus if we continue on this path. So essentially, that's one notch below investment grade.
And moving to investment grade I think will certainly give a boost to confidence that many investors require.